Subscribe to Lemonada Premium for Bonus Content

What happens when the criminal justice system invests in education instead of punishment? Larry Miller is the Chairman of the Jordan Brand Advisory Board and played a pivotal role in the brand’s growth. Yet behind his success was a secret – at age 16, he was convicted of second degree murder, which he shares in his book, “Jump: My Secret Journey from the Streets to the Boardroom.” For Larry, it was education in prison that changed his life’s trajectory, giving him the chance to earn a college degree, build a successful career, and challenge assumptions about what formerly incarcerated people can achieve.

To learn more about Larry’s story, check out his book, Jump: My Secret Journey from the Streets to the Boardroom

Follow When it Clicked wherever you get your podcasts, or listen ad-free on Amazon Music with your Prime Membership.

Stay up to date with us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia.

Want to become a Lemonada superfan? Join us at joinsubtext.com/lemonadasuperfan.

Click this link for a list of current sponsors and discount codes for this and all other Lemonada series: lemonadamedia.com/sponsors.

To follow along with a transcript, go to lemonadamedia.com/show/ shortly after the air date.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Larry Miller, Ana Zamora

Ana Zamora  01:48

Welcome to When It Clicked, I’m your host. Ana Zamora, founder and CEO of The Just Trust, an organization fighting for a criminal justice system that works better for all of us. In this series, I’m talking to people from all walks of life to ask why they’re working to transform our justice system. We may come to this issue for very different reasons, but ultimately, we all want the same thing, to create safety and opportunities for all. Some of my guests have made mistakes in the past and have been to prison. Some have a family member who has been to prison like I do, and others are driven by human rights, racial justice, faith or economics, whatever their reason, all are welcome at this table today, we’re talking to Larry Miller, the chairman of the Jordan Brand at Nike and author of the book jump my secret journey from the streets to the boardroom. For those who don’t know, Larry is the reason why Jordans are so globally iconic and have become the golden child of the Nike company. He’s truly a force both in business and in justice reform. He’s also the newest board member of the just trust, which is how I’ve gotten the opportunity to know him. I wanted to talk to Larry on the show, because his story is nothing short of remarkable, from his conviction for second degree murder at age 16 to becoming a top executive at one of the world’s largest companies. When Larry talks about creating a better justice system, it’s powerful because he’s lived it. He knows firsthand the value of education for giving incarcerated people a chance to choose a different path. So put on those Jordans, and let’s get into it.

 

Ana Zamora  03:47

Larry, your story is all about transformation, and it’s a story that you’ve made public only very recently. I want to get into that. Can you take me back to that time and your upbringing. What was it like to grow up in West Philadelphia?

 

Larry Miller  04:04

West Philadelphia, born and raised playground is where I spend most of my days. I grew up in West Philadelphia, born and raised there through elementary school. I was, you know, smartest kid in the class, teacher’s pet, like the kid that was always trying to please my teachers and parents. But as I got older, the streets started to pull at me, and by the age of, like, 12, 13, I had kind of abandoned the good kid, and, you know, I joined a gang and just got caught up in street life at that point from the age of about 12 years old, and that led to a bunch of trouble for me, and kind of led to me being in jail, being locked up a number of times as a juvenile. When I was 16 years old, I was in a gang. I was drunk, and I shot another kid and killed him. I was charged as an adult, my family was able to pull together enough money to get me an attorney, and he worked out a deal for me where I pleaded guilty to second degree murder, was sentenced to four and a half to 20 years while I was incarcerated. At that time, I really got into reading. That was how I kind of spent most of my time, and I read anything I could get my hands on. Wasn’t a lot in the library there. So you know was, it was kind of rare to be able to get really good books to read, but that became my pastime. I got my GED while I was incarcerated, at that point, actually ended up being the valedictorian of my graduating class in jail. So got out after doing the four and a half, went back to the old neighborhood, got caught up in the same old things, and was again in and out of jail. The last time I was arrested, I had five armed robbery charges. Was able to beat a couple of them, and ended up getting sentenced to four to 10 years. And when I was the place I was incarcerated at that point was called greater for in Pennsylvania, it was a prison in Pennsylvania, media maximum security prison. And when I got there, I realized that they had this program where they had trailers like outside the jail wall, and people could live in those trailers and actually leave every day and go to school or work and just have to be back in the evening. So when I heard about that program, I my goal was like, Okay, I’m going to get into that program. So I started taking classes inside the jail, and a number of colleges were offering classes. So I ended up getting into that program, got my associate’s degree while I was in that program, transferred my credits to Temple University, moved to a halfway house in North Philadelphia, and started at Temple University as a junior, got my bachelor’s degree in accounting, of all things, as a criminal, got my account bachelor’s degree in accounting, and started my career at Campbell’s Soup Company.

 

Ana Zamora  07:16

Amazing, that’s quite a story. I want to I want to break that down a little bit. Can you take me back to your experience early on with the criminal justice system? I’d love to hear a little bit more about interactions with police as a young person, as well as a little bit more about what your experience in prison was like for you as a young person.

 

Larry Miller  07:44

So the first time policeman ever pulled a gun on me, I was 12 years old.

 

Ana Zamora  07:50

Oh my gosh.

 

Larry Miller  07:51

Friend of mine and I had stolen the bike, and we were in his backyard, kind of stripping the bike down, and police came up. I ran through the house to try to get away, and I ran out the front door, and a policeman was there and pulled the gun on me and said, Stop, or I’ll blow your brains out. Of course, I stopped, and that was the first time I was actually arrested. I didn’t actually go to jail. That time, I ended up getting probation, but that was kind of the start of me getting in trouble. And you know, one of the things about growing up in that neighborhood and growing up in that environment and in that world is like jail is almost expected. Every time I went back to jail, it was the same people and it became normal.

 

Ana Zamora  08:36

Wow, so what do you think kind of changed for you, because it sounds like at some point, you know, you you took seriously what was going to be next in your life, or making a change in your life. What was that moment like when you realized I want to do something different?

 

Larry Miller  08:54

So the last time I was incarcerated, my oldest daughter had just been born, and I realized that, you know, I wanted to be there for her, I wanted to be able to take care of her, do provide for her, and I knew I couldn’t do that if I was in jail. So the last time I was incarcerated, I was already thinking about the fact that I didn’t want to live this life anymore. I wanted to change my life, but I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know how to do it. And I think when I discovered education that became my way out, that became my key to get out of that lifestyle that I was living. So like I said, my bachelor’s degree is in accounting, right? And at that time, there was what was known as the big eight accounting firms and and I had started interviewing with a bunch of them, and the one that I kind of zeroed in was called Arthur Anderson. May have heard of them before, so I ended up going there, spending the whole day interviewing with a number of people, and all day, in the back of my mind, I’m. Thinking, should I share my background with these folks? Because all they knew was I was a young black man about to graduate from Temple with honors, and they were interested. And I was interested. Finally, I get to the last person who was the hiring manager, and I decide that I’m going to share with him. So I kind of start telling him my story. And as I’m talking to him, I can see his face changing and, like, not in a good way. And finally I get done, and he said, So wow, that’s an amazing story, and I’m sure you’re going to do well. He reached in his pocket and pulled out an envelope, and he said, I have an offer letter here that I was all ready to give you, but I can’t give it to you. Now, he said, I can’t take a chance. I wish you the best, but I can’t hire you. And at that point, there were a couple feelings that I was dealing with. The first one was, this is a waste of my time. What I’m doing is a waste of time. They’re never going to let me build a professional career because of my background, I’ve wasted my time getting this education and putting all this time and effort and money into it, and the other thing was that I wasn’t going to share this information anymore. I wasn’t going to lie about it. I wasn’t going to deny it if it came up, but I wasn’t going to volunteer the information.

 

Ana Zamora  11:15

Of course, why would you after that experience.

 

Larry Miller  11:18

And for four years, that’s how I built my career, people I consider family had no clue about my about my background, because I was that diligent in trying to keep it quiet. It was challenging. It caused me to have recurring nightmares. Would wake up in a cold sweat dreaming that I was on my way back to jail for something that I didn’t really understand or know about I had migraines so bad, I ended up in the ER, a few times, and it was all because I was always anxious and nervous that somehow this would come out. And I had that feeling for close to 40 years.

 

Ana Zamora  13:31

So you went to temple. You had this experience at Arthur Anderson. You changed your strategy for getting a job, and you started building your career and eventually ending up at Nike. I’d love you to take us to the moment or the pathway to how you ended up at Nike. I do want to get into how hard it was to keep your past a secret over the years, but before we get into that more, can you tell me about your experience working at Nike in those early days. What was it like building and shaping the Jordan brand in the in the beginning?

 

Larry Miller  14:07

When I started at Nike, I was the first black vice president in the history of the company, and Michael Jordan was about to retire from the bulls for the second time. And there was a lot of talk around Nike of, hey, it’s been a nice run, but you know, Michael’s retiring and it’s and it’s over at that point, but there were some of us here at Nike who felt like there was an opportunity to build something around Michael Jordan after his flag days. Yeah. And so I was asked by Phil Knight to put a team together and strategies on how we were going to take that logo and actually create a brand. And at the time we started, the business was about about 140 100 $50 million and this year will be about 8 billion. So we did, we did something. Okay, we did something.

 

Ana Zamora  14:55

I’d say, so. So you talked a little bit already about. About holding your secret throughout your career, and the physical toll that it took from the migraines and all of that, I’d love for you to tell us a little story about the moment that you decided it was time for you to share about your past within your professional circle. What was it like calling up Phil Knight and Michael Jordan and telling them about your past?

 

Larry Miller  15:33

So first of all, I want to say that it was my oldest daughter Lila who actually encouraged me to share the story, and her and I worked on it together for probably well over 10 years. We worked, worked on it, and the reason it took so long was mainly because of me. First, I was busy, but also I was in a hurry to do this. But she convinced me that it was, it was the right thing to do. She felt like, Hey, your story inspires us, and I think it will inspire other people, so you need to share it. But I had a list of people that I said, I want to make sure they hear it from me versus hearing it from somewhere else. And so at the top of that list were Michael Jordan and Phil Knight. My first call was with Bill Knight, and at the end he said, he said, Well, when you said something personal, I didn’t know what to expect, but I can guarantee you it wasn’t this. I bet he said, but I think just this story is not only inspirational, but it’s aspirational and and you definitely should tell it, and I will support you. However, I can Good job, Mister Knight. I was like, that’s great. So the next day, I ended up talking to MJ, and I go to the whole deal again with him, kind of sharing the whole story. And when I was done, there was silence on the other end of the Pogue, and it was probably only a couple seconds, but it felt like an hour, but then he said, I agree with your daughter, you need to share this story. And anything I can do to help you, I will and my thinking at that point was, if these two guys feel like I’m doing the right thing, then I must be doing the right thing.

 

Ana Zamora  17:20

And how has opening up about your experiences affected you personally, you know, and professionally. What kind of ripple effects have you seen as a result of sharing your story? And I hope that the migraines have officially gone away.

 

Larry Miller  17:36

Absolutely, the migraines have stopped. Good. The dreams have stopped. I feel so much freer now. I used to feel like when I would go and speak to young people, or people in general about my career success and stuff like that, I always felt like I was cheating people, because I really wasn’t telling the whole story. And to me, I probably I wasn’t telling the most impactful part of the story, right? And since the book has come out, it’s allowed me to do that. It’s allowed me to, you know, be able to share the story. I feel a sense of freedom now that I don’t have to carry this burden around of being afraid that something’s going to come out that’s going to negatively impact the career that I’ve built up to this point. The other thing that has come out of sharing this that is probably for me, the most special thing that could have come out of this is that I got an opportunity to sit down with the family of the young man that I shot and express my sorrow and remorse for what I did. It was, it was an emotional meeting. They each spoke about how what happened affected them. That was really powerful for me, because, you know, I’ve been carrying this around for all those years. I’ve been carrying around how upset I was with myself, or what I did, you know, to take the life of a young black man for no reason whatsoever. It really affected me.

 

Ana Zamora  19:04

And it takes, it takes so much courage and strength on both parts, from their part and from yours. Wow, that’s very powerful, Larry.

 

Larry Miller  19:47

I’ve heard from a ton of people. I’ve gotten letters from all over the country, actually from outside of the country as well, from people who have either were I’ve gotten letters from people who were still incarcerated. I’ve gotten letters from people who were formerly incarcerated. It’s been amazing to me that folks are saying how much my story has either you know, encouraged them, inspired them, help them to realize that, you know, they can overcome things. And, you know, one of the things that I kind of have said to people is that, um, you know, there’s no shame in overcoming obstacles, right? There shouldn’t be shame in that. As a matter of fact, to me, it’s almost like it should be, you know, it should be honored that, hey, you absolutely overcome this and accomplish this. You know, my hat’s off to you, and I think, I think, but that’s not the way society looks at it.

 

Ana Zamora  21:08

But , it’s a it’s such an important part of the rehabilitation journey. My brother talks about this all the time, overcoming the shame of, you know, his addiction issues and his incarceration, and once he was able to get over that shame, pathways open for him, for healing and for the hard work that is rehabilitation. Larry, in addition to getting letters and messages from folks who are in prison and after prison, I also happen to know that you’ve received a flood of inquiries from criminal justice reform advocates like myself, who really wanted you to get involved in the work of changing our criminal justice system. I know you’ve already started this work. You dove head first, in fact, into this work. For one, we’re really grateful that you joined the board of directors of the just trust, you know, so I’d love to know what are your hopes in dedicating this next chapter of your life to the work of transforming the criminal justice system in America.

 

Larry Miller  22:17

You know, one of the other great benefits to me of of sharing my story is that it did open up for me a whole world that I didn’t really realize was there of people who are focused on improving and correcting and fixing our criminal justice system. And it’s been it’s been amazing to me to meet people and see how many folks who are really passionate about changing the criminal justice system, and so I’ve, you know, I’ve jumped in and tried to help out as much as I can, and tried to lend my support where I can. The Harvard Business School did a case study based on my story. They took my book and did a case study based on it. And one of the charts that’s in the case study shows that the recidivism rate at the time that they did this was around 77% on a national basis, right? But this chart shows that if folks are able to learn a skill or a trade or somehow be able to develop the opportunity to build a livable wage, life or career, that that 77% drops to 30% Yeah, if people are able to get a bachelor’s degree, 77% drop to 6% and with the master’s degree, is at zero. So it’s a clear cut indication that if people are able to learn something that will allow them to sustain their livelihood, to take care of their families, to contribute to their communities, that people don’t go back to jail if they are provided that opportunity. So if we can, if we can lower that recidivism rate significantly, I think it can definitely impact safety in our communities. It can impact crime in our communities, but but in order to do that, we’ve got to provide opportunities for people to be able to learn something or to gain some type of skill that allows them to build a life.

 

Ana Zamora  24:21

Larry’s absolutely right. We need to fundamentally change the experience of prison so that people can find opportunities once they’re out. We talk a lot about second chances in justice reform. We need to give people first chances too, a chance to succeed and break the cycle before it starts, we need more opportunities for youth like 16 year old Larry growing up in West Philly that divert them from the system into programs that help them with job training and placement. We need to give young people an opportunity to choose a better path in the first place, but instead of. Attention, we choose punishment. You know, as a society, I believe it’s hammered into us that the only way to hold people accountable is through incarceration and punishment. But I happen to believe accountability is a much more complicated journey. Can you tell me about your journey with accountability, and how can we build a more holistic criminal justice system that actually truly holds people accountable beyond just punishment and incarceration? What does that look like?

 

Larry Miller  25:36

First of all, I think there needs to be more consistency in the criminal justice system. But I also think that, you know, there’s a limit to paying for your crime. I think I would never be one to say a person commits a crime they shouldn’t pay for that crime. They should. But I also think that doesn’t mean that their life should be over at that point, or that they are no longer human beings at that point. You know, the I think the criminal justice system needs to be looked at from beginning to end, like the whole thing needs to be figured out. And, you know, there’s a prison in Chester, Pennsylvania, there’s a prison there that has adopted a Scandinavian approach to incarceration.

 

Ana Zamora  26:20

Little Scandinavia, yes.

 

Larry Miller  26:22

And it’s amazing the impact that that’s having on the folks that are there. They’re feeling like, okay, I may be in prison, but at least I’m still being treated like a person. My human rights are not being taken away. I’m not being treated like I’m no longer human. And again, I think the impact that that would have on crime in our in our society, on violence in our society, I think, would be major if we were able to implement things that could help people become better people while they’re incarcerated, so that when they get out, that’s right, they become contributors to their community, as opposed to people who take from their community.

 

Ana Zamora  27:01

That’s right. We need to fundamentally change the experience of prison so that, to your point, people can come out better, be better neighbors on the other side of prison. All right, Larry, we’re almost at time. I just have, like, a couple more things. What is one myth that you would like to bust about the criminal justice system? Just, let’s just go ahead and bust it right now.

 

Larry Miller  27:23

One myth I’d like to bust is that there’s no talent inside of prisons. To me, there’s some of the smartest, most created people I’ve ever met are people that I met while I was incarcerated. And to me, if we can figure out a way to tap into that creativity, into that intellect that can have a major impact on this country. And so to me, for people to feel like, you know, incarcerated people are smart, they can’t create, they don’t to me, that’s, that’s an incredible myth. I was just like I said at San Quentin for the film festival, and all the films that were shown were done by either current or formerly incarcerated people, and it was incredible, amazing stories. I mean, it’s just to me, I think there’s so much talent that’s wasted inside of the prisons that we need to we need to figure out how to tap into that talent I am this is, this is a quote that I use all the time, but there’s a college that has a commercial that says, and the line in the commercial says, In this world, talent is distributed equally, but opportunity is not. That’s right, and to me, that is such a true statement, and our goal should be, how do we provide more opportunities so people can express and we can benefit from that talent that exists, that’s that’s not being given the opportunities right now?

 

Ana Zamora  28:51

That’s right. Thank you so much. Larry, that was excellent. What a wonderful conversation, thank you.

 

Larry Miller  28:57

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

 

CREDITS  29:02

Thanks for listening to When It Clicked to learn more about Larry’s story, check out his book “Jump ” my secret journey from the streets to the boardroom. When It Clicked is a production of Lemonada Media and the Just Trust. I’m your host, Ana Zamora, Hannah Boomershine is our producer. Muna Danish is our senior producer. Ivan Kuraev is our audio engineer, with additional engineering support from Johnny Vince Evans. Music is from APM. Jackie Danziger is our VP of partnerships and production. Executive Producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Wittels Wachs.  Follow When It Clicked wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.